Plumbing

[mikelbeck]

Does anybody know anything about plumbing?

I've got no heat upstairs... When I turn the heat on there I hear water starting to go through the baseboards but then it stops and they stay cold. I think there's a big air bubble in there. I tried bleeding that zone last night but wasn't able to get much out of it. I'm gonna try again today but if somebody has any tricks for how to get a large amount of air out of the line I'd love to hear it.

[Art]

How many zones? Loop or diverter tees? Sometimes base board needs to be elevated on the bleeder end. Make sure you have a large catch cup (take out soup pails from Chinese are my favorite) because sometimes you get a mix of water and air. Start bleeding at the end closest to the boiler first and do every rad in the zone.

[mikelbeck]

How many zones? Loop or diverter tees? Sometimes base board needs to be elevated on the bleeder end. Make sure you have a large catch cup (take out soup pails from Chinese are my favorite) because sometimes you get a mix of water and air. Start bleeding at the end closest to the boiler first and do every rad in the zone.

2 zones, not sure what a loop or diverter tee is...

Attached is a pic of my burner. Items #1 and #2 are the lines going up, #1 is the downstairs, #2 is the upstairs. #3 and #4 are the valves to isolate those zones. #5 is the auto water feed.

I've shut off the burner, closed valves #3 & 4, connected a garden hose to spigot #2 and put the other end in a 5 gallon bucket. When I open the spigot I get a burst of water and some air but then it stops. When manually turn on the fill valve I don't get any more water or air coming out so there's either a blockage in the line or a large air bubble. I'm thinking I'll have to keep the spigot open and keep opening the fill valve (keeping it under 30 psi so it won't overflow) and wait for the water and air to start flowing again? I've only kept it open for 5 minutes at a time, maybe I need to doing it longer?

Also none of the baseboards have bleeders on them so bleeding it at the boiler is the only option.

[Art]

http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd118/JeffPicks/divertertee.jpg shows how diverter tee's work. They are part of a monoflow loop which is how most simple hot water heating systems work. The circulator is usually at the end of the loop just before the boiler. No bleeders on the radiators is a pain. Usually they are on the elbow at the end of the run of heating element.

[Art]

1 and 2 in your picture should be returns. Your feed to the radiators is out of the top of the boiler behind 7. Anyways you are halfway there. Same procedure as you described. (boiler off 3&4 closed) But you may need to wait as much as 30 minutes before all of the air is out of the zone. You cannot really hurt it as long as you keep the pressure under 30 psi. When you manually turn on the fill valve, are you using the "quick fill" lever?

[mikelbeck]

1 and 2 in your picture should be returns. Your feed to the radiators is out of the top of the boiler behind 7. Anyways you are halfway there. Same procedure as you described. (boiler off 3&4 closed) But you may need to wait as much as 30 minutes before all of the air is out of the zone. You cannot really hurt it as long as you keep the pressure under 30 psi. When you manually turn on the fill valve, are you using the "quick fill" lever?

Yes, I'm using the quick fill lever.

I didn't think it would take that long, I'll give it another try tonight and will see how it goes.

Is the lack of water/air coming out while the valve is open normal or should there be a steady stream from the spigot?

[Art]

Well air compresses and water is pretty dense. You are pushing through the circulator, boiler etc. It will eventually make the trip. When it does, the stuff coming out may be a lil gross. When the air is all gone, it should be a steady flow.

[mikelbeck]

Well air compresses and water is pretty dense. You are pushing through the circulator, boiler etc. It will eventually make the trip. When it does, the stuff coming out may be a lil gross. When the air is all gone, it should be a steady flow.

Ok, thanks for the info. I'll let ya know how it goes tonight.

[mikelbeck]

I spent about 45 minutes down there today.

I hooked up a hose to the upstairs zone, shut off the burner and closed both valves (#3 and #4). I opened the spigot and got about 2 inches of water (in a 5 gallon bucket) and some air. I played with the fast-fill to keep the pressure around 25-28 but never got any more air or water out of it. I closed it all up and turned it back on, went upstairs and turned on the heat. At first I hear some water going through the pipes in the walls, but never in the bedrooms. The pipes never got got. I turned the heat off, then I heard some water running again as if it was going back to where it came from and left it for the time being.

Any more ideas? Do I need to keep on this?

What's worrying me is I keep opening the fast fill valve so it's putting more water into that pipe but nothing is coming out. Where's it going?

[LongIsland63SS409]

I had the same problem in my current house as well as the first one.

I installed elbows with 1/8 pipe thread on the 3 zone return lines at the highest point in the basement.
They are installed just before the drop off before the circulator pump.
Automatic air valve installed in the elbows release any trapped air.

Trick was given to me by a boiler service man.
Pipes are never air bound again.


http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f42/LongIsland63SS409/1025111746a1.jpg

Any more ideas? Do I need to keep on this?

Yes when bleeding the system the zone valves have to be manually opened.
The zone valve has a small lever on it to unseat the plunger.
The lever is spring loaded. There should be a detent to keep the valve open.

Bleed one zone at a time.
Manually open the zone valve you wish to bleed.
Close the valve directly under the spigot you are bleeding.
The water will automatically flow thru the zone valve into the radiators in the loop.
Water and air will flow into the bucket.


Mike

[mmhotrod]

Mike B
I have a friend in Medford who does nothing but that kinda work. He is honest and a mopar guy, which I know you like, LOL His name is Bob Mcarthy . 516 903 2014 Tell him youre a friend of mine (mario) and he will help you for a reasonable fee. if not just a favor to stop over. because you are so close to him he wont mind running over.
Mario

just a caution, if you bring up Hemi, he will never leave.......LOL

[mikelbeck]

Mike B
I have a friend in Medford who does nothing but that kinda work. He is honest and a mopar guy, which I know you like, LOL His name is Bob Mcarthy . 516 903 2014 Tell him youre a friend of mine (mario) and he will help you for a reasonable fee. if not just a favor to stop over. because you are so close to him he wont mind running over.
Mario

just a caution, if you bring up Hemi, he will never leave.......LOL

Is that what he does for a living or just some dude who fools around with this sort of thing?

[Tmac]

Boiler off and cooled. Close valves for circuits # 3,4 on the circuit needing to be bled attach a hose on that valve 1 or 2 put it out the window, on the make up water regulator 5 there should b a lever at the base of the bell push that over this will give you full water pressure to system listen to hose until water stops spitting and runs steady it may take a little while for the water to start spitting because of the long run of pipe and it's the second floor. Don't know how big your house is. Your system is air bound. If successful make sure you place the regulator valve lever back to regulate position the smaller can looking vents are automatic and only ment to remove small amounts of residuial air a system might get from a feed bubble. If this doesn't work you may need a plumber to pump charge your system this is usually an issue if your house water pressure is low. Check main valves to make sure they are completely opened. 6 and all that other stuff over there is your tankless hot water coil has no effect on anything

[mmhotrod]

Is that what he does for a living or just some dude who fools around with this sort of thing?

Its his own business and he is the best I know of. He has been taking care of my oil burners (2) for 5 yrs now and was recommended by Nick Fusco with the SLP firebird. Nick used him for years.
I wouldn't recommend just anyone. I buy cash oil and he takes care of my burners

[mikelbeck]

Ok so I bled it for a while, got a lot of air and water out. Went upstairs, turned on the heat and.... nothing. No heat.

So now I've got the hose connected to the spigot, the valves are both closed and I'm leaving it like this for a while. I'll check the pressure every once in a while to make sure it stays around 25 psi and hopefully the air will work it's way out over the next couple of hours.

[mikelbeck]

Spent about an hour bleeding it, I got a lot of air and water out, then went upstairs and turned the heat on and... you guessed it, no heat. I think it's time to call a professional.

[mikelbeck]

Ok, I'm not sure what happened but when I woke up this morning the heat was on upstairs. Maybe I did get the air out and didn't wait long enough last night for the heat to come on. Hopefully it'll keep working.

Thanks everybody for the tips.

[LongIsland63SS409]

:headbang:

Mike

[mmhotrod]

yeah baby!!!!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjzXlRzM6PQ&feature=related

[Tmac]

Mike it shouldn't have taken that long. On your boiler discharge line(the 1 1/2 " coming off the back to the left of the stack going to 3/4 copper) I see one solinoid zone valve and a line teed off that going right I'm assuming that is another solinoid valve those are your zone valves run off the stat pop off the tin cover usually one screw at bottom center facing the guts you should see a lever on the right side have your son go up and turn the stat up to bring up heat you will hear the valve opening sounds like a cheap toy robot and that lever should rise about 2" your circulatur pump should come on when the valve is opened boiler comes on when water temp in boiler cools from return water aqua stat brings that in. That lever should be one o'clock if it doesn't that could be your problem. The highest level of heating always gets the air maybe change vent for that circuit but if all is working if it ain't broke don't fix it. that lever can also be moved manually pushed up and some click into place and should have been when bleeding. Might be why it didn't bleed so quick. Welcome to my brain damaged world I always leave something out. Next time you will know. I always forget something remember that if you are in the other lane against me.

[Art]

Yeah, I forgot about the zone valves too.

[mikelbeck]

Mike it shouldn't have taken that long. On your boiler discharge line(the 1 1/2 " coming off the back to the left of the stack going to 3/4 copper) I see one solinoid zone valve and a line teed off that going right I'm assuming that is another solinoid valve those are your zone valves run off the stat pop off the tin cover usually one screw at bottom center facing the guts you should see a lever on the right side have your son go up and turn the stat up to bring up heat you will hear the valve opening sounds like a cheap toy robot and that lever should rise about 2" your circulatur pump should come on when the valve is opened boiler comes on when water temp in boiler cools from return water aqua stat brings that in. That lever should be one o'clock if it doesn't that could be your problem. The highest level of heating always gets the air maybe change vent for that circuit but if all is working if it ain't broke don't fix it. that lever can also be moved manually pushed up and some click into place and should have been when bleeding. Might be why it didn't bleed so quick. Welcome to my brain damaged world I always leave something out. Next time you will know. I always forget something remember that if you are in the other lane against me.

The valves have a metal bracket around it and a lot of wires sticking out, plus a sticker on it that says something about de-energizing before opening... so that kind of scared me away from opening them up. So you're saying those valves need to be open when bleeding? Yesterday I turned the upstairs thermostat up and went down to the basement, when I shut off the burner I hear the valve click so I assumed it closed when I shut it off. If it's got to be open I guess I'll have to bit the bullet and open that thing up and bleed it again.

[Tmac]

How old is your setup it sounds like you have solenoid valves that are coils and plunger type by that noise. When you take off the cover you should see a pin probably around 3/8 or less with a coil around it but if it's popping its usually working the pop is the valve seating or opening. The other type have small servo motors and sound like the cheap robot moving. The difference is solenoid valves are usually line voltage 110 and the servo are low 24 volts. If you have programable stats you should be low volt and a stat size wire would go to the valve. Line voltage would be 14 ga. romex like house wire.I went back and looked at the picture the wire coming across from the wall and taped to the supply piping (building code violation) is romex and appears to go to your valves so you have line voltage valves but there is also a thin wire coming out of the control box which is a stat wire but I can't see where it goes so you might have a line voltage valve and low voltage one. If a zone was added usually for the second floor that would be the low voltage stat homes built in the 50s 60s usually had line voltage stats. Solenoid valves usually need to be energized to open them.

[mikelbeck]

How old is your setup it sounds like you have solenoid valves that are coils and plunger type by that noise. When you take off the cover you should see a pin probably around 3/8 or less with a coil around it but if it's popping its usually working the pop is the valve seating or opening. The other type have small servo motors and sound like the cheap robot moving. The difference is solenoid valves are usually line voltage 110 and the servo are low 24 volts. If you have programable stats you should be low volt and a stat size wire would go to the valve. Line voltage would be 14 ga. romex like house wire.I went back and looked at the picture the wire coming across from the wall and taped to the supply piping (building code violation) is romex and appears to go to your valves so you have line voltage valves but there is also a thin wire coming out of the control box which is a stat wire but I can't see where it goes so you might have a line voltage valve and low voltage one. If a zone was added usually for the second floor that would be the low voltage stat homes built in the 50s 60s usually had line voltage stats. Solenoid valves usually need to be energized to open them.

This house was built in '97, I'm the original owner. The setup is the one that came with the house. I'll go down later or tomorrow and get some better pictures.

[Tmac]

Are you still getting heat? Is there any sounds in the piping while it's on?

[mikelbeck]

Are you still getting heat? Is there any sounds in the piping while it's on?

Yes, heat. Yes, sounds.

[Tmac]

Sounds like water bubbling or pouring means there is still air in system. Take picture of zone valve cover off or name and model #.

[mikelbeck]

Here's the zone valves.

[mikelbeck]

Front.

[mikelbeck]

Side.

[Tmac]

Honeywell zone valves have a lever under them you pull it sideways from left to right will give hat servo sound when you pull it to the right as far as it can go about an inch pull in slightly forward the slot has a notch in it that holds the tab. Follow the same proceedure a before to purge out air when done just push tab lever out of notch it will return to closed by itself (spring loaded). Should do the trick. make sure boiler off and somewhat cooled an hour should do to cool it enough.